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Thai study tips from Sanookers
Here is a motley collection of study tips and thoughts on everything from pronunciation to correct spelling to how to avoid getting in to hot water or should that be naam roon or nam loon? More posts as I find them or do you have your own sources you would like to share? e-mail mike@bangkok-companies.com
Heard it many times, but not directed at me. I'm invariably polite to bar girls in fact all girls. Last night went out with a my Thai female teacher freind and a Canadian mate who is far far better and younger looking than I. We went around a few bars, the teacher wanted the experience, she was mystified as to why the girls fell all over me while leaving the good looking Canadian alone. The girls told the teacher that they liked Chang Noi because he was "Jai Dee", which we all know is Thai Bar girl code for..... STUPID. Other common terms??? INcidentally, it is ARAI, FARUNG not alai or falung. I realise that many Thai people mispronounce Ls and Rs but you are better to say it properly; educated Thai people will appreciate that you speak the language properly and not like a 5 year old (as many bar girls speak it). Don't rely on a bar girl to teach you spelling either, most of them have minimal language skills and will teach you wrong..... Sounds like you're pretty close to the answer. My Thai skills are okay, but I'm not going to claim to be an expert about the language. Anyone with corrections of my opinions are welcomed. This subject takes me back quite a few years when I was learning Thai from my old friend, Prof. Pathom. As I recall, he said "Sawat-Dee" is made of two words that have been combined to make one, "Sawat" and "Dee". The former derived from Sanskrit and the latter Thai. He said both basically mean "good", so in a way, it's sort of like saying, "Good-good". Variations of how people say it, i.e., "wa-dee", "wat-dee", "swa-dee", etc., are generally slang as Flashermak indicated, and tend to be used informally, usually between friends, although there are those who use variations more frequently. My understanding is that the "correct" pronunciation of the expression is, "Sawat-dee". When you see it written in English, the Thais spell it as "SAWASDEE". So where on earth does the second "S" come from? Well, that second "S" ISN'T a silent letter. Thai letters that are silent use the symbol "mai-than-dtah-khat" (looks like the number 6 but slightly tilted to the right) above the letter. Okay, so if it's not silent, why doesn't it sound like a "S"? It's because of the way that particular letter, "Saw-Seua", is used. When the letter Saw-Seua is used at the beginning of a word, it has an "S" sound. But when it's used at the end of a word, it has a "T" sound to it. So the way the conversion of written Thai letters into written English letters work, the word comes out spelled as "SAWASDEE". Make perfect sense to the Thais, but confusing for English-speaking folks. However, in everyday common use it can often come out as "SAWA-DEE", etc. Here's another example of how confusing all this can get, even for the Thais. In Thai, the word "Apple" (borrowed from English) is pronounced as "Ap-pun". The letter "E" is silent, but why does the letter "L" have an "N" sound? It's because of how the letter "Law-Ling" is used. When used at the beginning of a word, the letter Law-Ling has an "L" sound to it. But when used at the end of a word, it has an "N" sound. Thus, the word "London" has a distinct "L" sound to it, but "Seattle" comes out sounding like, "See-at-tun". Why the Thais don't just transliterate English words as they actually sound is another one of the many mysteries in the Land O' Smiles. In terms of writing English words, the Thais generally do pretty well. I agree, it could be a bit more helpful to transliterate Thai words (i.e., Sawatdee, etc.) to English the way they sound. Other confusing examples can sometimes be names, such as Pol or Wal (pronounced Pohn and Wan). I also agree that it's not always easy for Thais to pronounce some English words, just as it is for foreigners to pronounce some Thai words. Part of that is a physiological difference. Certain sounds aren't used in Thai, just as certain sounds aren't used in English. Because of that, some of the muscles used to make certain speech sounds aren't used. It does indeed take practice to "master" those sounds. A good explanation of the physical characteristics can be found in a self-study course called, "ACCENT ENGLISH - Sounds of American Speech for THAI SPEAKERS", by Harold Stearns. One example you gave was the word "Oriental". In Thai speech it comes out as "Orientun". I understand the reason why it works like that, but it isn't the English spelling I was getting at. It's the spoken pronunciation of those English words. However, communication of English words doesn't always have to be difficult or hard to understand. That's not to say it's always hard to understand what Thais are saying when they speak English. But sometimes it is. I think it's often easier for those of us who spend more time around the Thais than it is for those who don't. In the US, when my wife tries to speak English, sometimes people ask me, "What did she say?" For example, if she goes to a grocery store and asks, "Waew can I fine littun appun?", people have no idea what she's saying. She's saying exactly the way she learned English in Thailand. It's the "littun appun" that throws people off. There are alternative forms of pronunciation that can be used. While it still may not be perfect, it can make understanding a bit easier. And that's the whole key to communication... understanding. When Thais learn English they often learn by Thai rules. So if the word is spelled "Oriental", the "L" is shown in Thai script as "Law-Ling", which when placed at the end of a word sounds like an "N" sound. There are other letters that also have a different sound depending on the placement, but I'll use "L" as the example. It seems to me that it would be a lot closer to being correct by spelling the word in Thai as it sounds, thus instead of it sounding like "Orientun" or "littun appun", why not write it (in Thai) as "Or-ree-en-toe" or "lit-toe ap-poe", or something to that effect. Thailand is not likely to change all their English-Thai dictionaries or methods of teaching English to do this. I've spent a number of years volunteering at a university English Language Institute in the US, where my attention was focused on Thai students trying to polish their English language skills in order to pass their required TOEFL exams. Most of the students have had at least some English study in Thailand, but are very surprised that American English is not quite the way they learned it in Thailand. I imagine it's somewhat similar in other English speaking countries as well. Regarding Thai words that are written in English, I agree with you, why don't they just transliterate Thai words to English the way they actually sound? If it's going to be written in English, obviously it's for the purpose of English speaking people to understand the Thai words. I'm not sure how well that would always work though, since some Thai sounds are pretty hard for foreigners to learn. "ng", "dt", and "bp" are a few toughies. I do okay with the first two, but I still have a hard time getting the "bp" sound right. I'll never be able to speak Thai as well as a native-born Thai, and I'll probably always have an accent that sounds like a foreigner to the Thais. But as long as one can understand and be understood, then does it really matter? Thai is a tough language, but the more I study Thai, the more I realize that English must be an even tougher language for foreigners to learn. Phonetically, English has some unusual rules. Whereas Thai alphabets cover all phonetic sounds, English letters create multiple sound when spelled differently. Grammatically, English has too many rules that even native speakers cannot comprehend. Well, thank goodness we have 'Thinglish' and can understand each other--LOL! Pee-seua is indeed the world for butterfly the animal.... But is that what you want? If you want the word for butterfly as in unfaithful, try jow-shoe. It's better to learn to both read and speak Thai at the same time. But trying to do that from books and/or tapes alone is really hard and not as effective as learning from a teacher. Books and tapes are okay to pick up a few common words and phrases, but there's not feedback to correct you or readily answer any questions you might have. How much time it takes to memorize and learn the Thai alphabet varies from person to person. Not everyone learns at the same rate. It also depends on how much time you're willing to put into it... the more time you spend, the faster you're likely to learn. I've talked with a few highly educated Thais who admit they can't easily remember all the Thai letters. But because it's their native language, they can obviously recognize and use them when needed. Bear in mind that being able to recite the Thai alphabet from memory will not necessarily enable you to automatically speak the language. They need to be learned together. By doing it that way, things start to make more sense. When I was learning the Thai alphabet, I dealt with a few letters at a time (5 to 10). Once I had those down to memory, I moved on the the next set. Then I'd go back to see if I remembered what I previously learned and add the newer set to it. If I forgot, then I'd go back though it again until I got it. Did it this way until I got through the whole thing. I also used a small tape recorder to record my progress. It was easier to listen back to check for any mistakes. However, I was also learning how to use the letters in both writing and speaking. You might learn the Thai alphabet in a couple of months, but the real question is will you really be able to use it effectively? There's more to the language than just learning the alphabet or a few phrases provided as examples. You'll do a lot better to learn the language as a whole with both writing and speech, and to do so either in a class or from a skilled Thai tutor. Your best bet is to learn the language from a Thai person(s), I first learned to speak Thai from my two year association with Thai soldiers (and of course Telak's, bargirls, & various locals, usually peasants) in the early seventies, that was influenced by the "Teachers" language skills, pronunciation or mispronunciation of certain words, accents, dialects etc. Here in the states my language skills continued as I had a Thai wife, constant hearing the language, speaking it often etc....BUT, I never learned to read and write Thai...other than my name in thai alphabet. AND I never had formal lessons...wasn't necessary. I have tried heard those Thai tapes your refering to, it seems to me that they teach "formal Thai" Pronunciation of certain words are different and different words are used. Example....a tape or instruction book may use the word "Phan Lay Yah" for wife. (When I told my ex wife that one she laughed out loud.....NOBODY SAY LIKE THAT!!!THAT HIGH AND MIGHTY PEOPLE LANGUAGE!!!!!!) She (and others) indicated that "Mee uh" is universally used and better understood. I have had some interaction in the States here with Thai monks...they tend to use a more formal or stylized language that of course omits certain words that are considered, not necessarily vulgar but not proper....These monks are also from the Issan region. Anyway, I'm no expert by any means but Thai is very tonal, you have to use falling, rising and mid tones as certain words are spelt the same but have different meaning MAH-can mean, dog, come, horse,doctor etc depending on the tone....best learn it from a Thai, if you have a Wat or temple in your area you may find a tutor. I am also trying to learn Thai and am using David
Smyths'
book / cassette as well as attending classes. One problem that I have found with
the romanised way of writing thai words is that it is not consistent and it can
lead to confusion. For example in our Thai class we were told that "kamlan"
is the equivalent to our "ing". if you are serious about learning the Thai language, then invest the time in learning to read. If you only want to speak some basic conversational Thai, then you can spare yourself the agony--LOL! I say this because I think it takes real discipline to memorize and read all 44 consonants and 32 vowels. Maybe one can learn it in a 'couple of months', but I've been lazy (LOL!). Fortunately, my leaning via transliteration has worked for me thus far because I am learning from a Thai teacher (a native speaker). I think learning via transliteration will not work if you cannot hear the words. Therefore, learning to read Thai is the best way--you will say the words correctly because it is pronounced the way it is written. You're partly right about the tones used in Thai... the language is indeed tonal. Change the tone (vocally) of a word, and you could end up saying something different than intended or just jibberish. However, in addition to the Falling, Rising and Mid tones mentioned, there are also High tones and Low tones. In all, the Thai language uses 5 tones. True, most Thai that is taught may be a bit on the formal side, but it's not a bad idea to learn it that way. Thais will certainly understand what you're talking about. You can always develop beyond the basics and add to your skills later. The advantage to learning from a Thai instructor or teacher is that the basic skills can be developed in a more organized fashion in less time than to try to pick it up on a hit & miss basis. IMHO, it's a lot easier to have a good foundation built first before adding the walls and roof. A person can learn to speak enough to get by okay without learning to read or write the language, maybe even do pretty well. But as Hono aptly stated, unless you can clearly HEAR the tones, it's not always so easy to know which are being used. In real life, while the tones are certainly there, individual mannerisms in speech can sometimes make it difficult to detect at times. In time, much can be picked up from context of what's being said. That's one of the advantages to learning reading & writing along with speaking. I sort of gathered that Joegumby isn't quite at a point of having the languages skills down just yet, and is trying to decide which is best, learning speech or learning the alphabet? Learn both and you won't go wrong by expanding your overall abilities. YES!!!! Learn to read and write Thai first! This is how I learnt, being very lucky to be able to read and write in my native NZ before coming to Thailand. I spent about 7-8 classroom hours plus a similar amount of time practicing writing the characters plus vowels at home. In my experience, the foreigners with the best Thai are the ones who can read and write or those that have been here for donkeys years! If you don'tr read and write Thai, your pronunciation will never be that good, IMHO. You need to be able to differntiate the vowels and then in time, the tones., Reading and writing is the only way to go. Good luck! If at all possible, try and learn to read and write with a native English speaker - that is how I learnt and it was great. When a vowel appears to the left of a consonant, you write the vowel first; when a vowel appears above or below a consonant, you write the consonant first. This is also how you would spell the syllable aloud, and how you would type it. There are other less clear-cut cases: for example, a syllable with both a vowel to the right of the consonant and a tone mark. Does the vowel or the tone mark come first? Think of the whole word and how to write it. picture it in your mind. The shape, the layout, the spelling - savour it for a moment, add a sound to it then write it! Thai is written from left to right so start at the laft and work your way to the right - simple If you write the word knight do you start with k or n? ps I always add the tone marks as an afterthought - a bit like dotting the i's and crossing the t's Thai vowels are great! It seems to be all over Thailand but perhaps just a bit more prevalanet in Isaan perhaps where they obviously have their own accent and almost their own language. At the end of the day, if you want to speak Thai properly, say the R. Got to disagree big time here OK, let's try and put it another way. Would you like to speak English like some one off "Coronation Street" or perhaps with a strong accent as they have in some of the small towns in the southern States of the US. (Neither of these analogies are actually that valid as they are more accents than MISPRONUNCIATION). Also, apologies to anyone from these particular areas - no offence is intended. If one starts off learning and speaking Thai properly, you have a better chance of speaking it well. Funny really, working at a language school that had mid-upper income Thais and more often than not they spoke the R. Bargirls, from the lower echelons of society use the L. I know how I would prefer to talk. I had this experience with learning Spanish. I originally learned Spanish from Mexican Nationals working in the construction field in Los Angeles. Needless to say, the "dialect" or accent I picked up was considered rather vulgar to most Spanish speakers. Now, most of the people that have worked with me for the last ten years are Guatemalan and they have taught me how to clean up my talking somewhat, though I am still told that native Spanish speakers can usually tell I learned Spanish "on the streets of Tijuana", so to speak. When I began to learn Thai, I learned mostly at first from language cassettes, wherein the "R" sound was used. But when I started using the language in and around Bangkok and northern Thailand, the "R" sound just naturally degraded to an "L" sound, as I rarely (especially in the social circles I was in) heard the language being spoken that way. I now usually don't use the forced "R" sound, as the lazy and easy tone of the "L" sound is becoming more natural. As for "knowing how I want to sound", I agree and disagree with you. I remember when I spoke the Mexican dialect, it endeared me to my co-workers, as they knew I learned Spanish from using it, rather than in a college, like many of the Gringos that talked Spanish in the construction industry. I feel like the Thais I talk to know that I learned Thai from being in Thailand, rather than from formal learning. But I agree with you, I believe that most Thais look up to people with education, so they might prefer the educated sound. They also know what class of Thai people I associate with by the way I pronounce the language. Not really sure where I am going with this, just observing out loud. I am now at the funny point where I know how to do both pronunciations and am sometimes making a conscience choice as to which one to use. It occurs to me that it would be rather contrite to develope two rather different available choices has to which way to pronounce the Thai language, using either one when social situations dictate. While I totally respect your journey into learning the Thai language in depth, Sticky, I doubt I could attempt that before permanently relocating to Thailand, something I plan to do as soon as possible. Your recent posts about learning the Thai alphabet left me bewildered. I still look at that stuff with a total lack of any comprehension at all, though I would really like to have some command of it. Have to admit I am with Stickman on this issue - I once had a young (Thai) accountant join us who had undergone intensive private training - the problem was that the teacher had been from Hudderfield. Now I sure he was a good teacher and she defintely was a good accountant (has since left us unfortunately) - but everytime she pronounced one of those low sounding Yorkshire vowels - half the office used to set off giggling. In a mad attempt by one our UK staff (from the south) to help her out - she was instructed to pronounce every vowel as an "a" - which set us off even more becuase she sounded like a cockney barrow boy!! I live with a well educated Teacher of Thai, she certainly pronounces the R's and says that its merely the correct prononcian of the language. She's adamant that if I wish to speak correct and proper Thai, that I should as well, in fact she told me that If I want to speak in the "Essarn" (her term) fashion I should find another teacher. To be proper in Thai, one should roll the R's like a Scot. But nobody actually does this except when reading something on a formal occasion. Lao simply has no R sound. What would be an R in Thai is either an H or and L in Lao. Northern Thai is closer to Lao than to Central Thai, but it does have a definite R sound. Almost as often though, the R become an H as in Lao. (BAW HOO = MAI ROO, but HAH ROI not HAH LOI as in Lao) Standard (Central) Thai has very definite L's and R's, and an educated Thai will speak the words the way they are written. However, perhaps 1/3 of the people in Bangkok now are from Isaan and the L's and R's have accordingly got a bit mixed up. Note that the people who do so are not exactly the best educated or highest on the social pecking order. If I were to mix up L's and R's at my university, the Thais would think I am even more out to lunch than they already do. My wife, who is not from Isaan, pronounces the r's like l's. The funny thing is that whenever I roll my proper r's, people laugh at me. I have been told more than a few times that "nobody really talks like that". In school, I started rolling my r's after being corrected by the teacher time and time again. About that time is when people started to chuckle as I talked to them, always adding "You speak Thai very clearly." My understanding of the situation is that the reason Bangkokians tend to pronounce r's like l's is because of the heavy Chinese influence in Bangokok, not because of an Isaan influence. It's the Chinese who didn't distinguish the r's and l's. Over time, a change in Thai pronunciation has occured in the city due to the high concentration of Chinese-Thais. I read that in a book somewhere [so it must be true :) ]. Right now, I can't remember which book. I could be wrong. In "Essential Thai", James Higbie writes: "Colloquial pronunciation is the common, everyday pronunciation of a language. Following are some features of colloquial Thai. The first three points are considered incorrect pronunciations in Standard Thai: 1) "r" is pronounced "l" - This feature is very common. Some Thais never say "r" at all, Examples are rong-raem (hotel) commonly pronounced long-laem and ran-a-han ("restaurant") commonly pronounced lan-a-han."
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